conjunction
 

Hi,
Can I also use 'yet', 'however' and 'still' instead of 'but' without changing the meaning in these examples?

1.He is a doctor, but/yet he is not kind.
He is a doctor. However/Still, he is not kind.

2.He is poor, but/yet he is happy.
He is poor. However/Still, he is happy.

3.She is naughty, but/yet she is not happy.
She is naughty. However/Still, she is not happy.

4.Is Mike tall?
Yes, he is tall, but/yet he is thin.
Yes, he is tall. However/Still, he is thin.

5.It is a fat dog, but/yet its owner is thin.
It is a fat dog. However/Still, its owner is thin.

Thank you very much for your reply.

Re: conjunction
 

Grammatically, yes. They're not all conjunctions however - still and however are adverbs. And notice that there's considerable stylistic difference between them. Yet suggests a formal style and would be much more common in written English, as would however. Still, on the other hand, is informal and would be much more likely in spoken English. But is neutral and could occur in any style. So from that point of view they're not interchangeable.

Re: conjunction
 

Hi Susan,

1.Is the phrase 'on the other hand' formal or informal?

2.Can but, still, yet, however and on the other hand all be used in contrasting sentences?
For example,

1.It is a fat dog, but its owner is thin.
It is a fat dog. Still, its owner is thin.
"However" and "yet" aren't appropriate here because the example is informal, right?

2.Some people prefer to live in the country, but/yet others prefer to live in the city.
Some people prefer to live in the country. However, others prefer to live in the city.
"Still" isn't proper here because the example is formal, right?

Can I use 'on the other hand' in both examples?

Thank you very much for your comment.

Re: conjunction
 

1. Neutral rather than formal. But in the British national corpus on the other hand occurs 47 times in written texts, predominantly in a second sentence while it occurs 17 times in spoken texts and is predominantly combined with a co-ordinating conjunction. So it it clearly more common in written English and used differently when it occurs in spoken language. Some typical examples :

Written :
...25%, for instance, in a four- member constituency. On the other hand, the distribution of first- preference vote...
...militates against the decision- taking ability of firms. On the other hand, they are not prepared to countenance...

SPOKEN
...it could break your arm. And on the other hand, if it started and took off suddenly, ...
...they're not an executor's personal responsibility, but on the other hand an executor is not entitled to charge...



2. Still is wrong here in any case as it expresses concession (a "surprising" change in the direction of the text, breaking the reader/listener's expectations) rather than contrast - which is what is involved in your examples. Compare :
I got sea bass instead of salmon. The salmon was really expensive, but the sea bass was on special offer. but = contrast : expensive vs cheap
The salmon was really expensive but I bought it anyway as I like it better than sea bass.
but = concession. The beginning of the sentence (The salmon was really expensive) suggests that the speaker won't buy it, but then she "surprises" you by saying she did anyway.

But and However can express both concession and contrast (so are OK in your examples and in mine),
yet and still can only be used to express concession, (and so are not possible in your examples or in the first of mine)
on the other hand can only be used to express contrast (so would be OK in your examples and in my first, but not in my second).

Then on top of that you have the stylistic differences and frequency differences in spoken/written English - so Still I for instance occurs 8 times in the BNC spoken corpus and not at all in the written corpus.

Re: conjunction
 

Hi Susan,

1.Do the three phrases 'on the other hand', 'and on the other hand' and 'but on the other hand' all mean the same thing? Is it more common to use 'and/but on the other hand' in spoken English?


2.Do you mean however would be fine in informal sentences, like "It is a fat dog. However, its owner is thin."?
Would 'however' be fine in spoken English, too?

Thanks a million.

Re: conjunction
 

1. Yes and yes
2. The problem with the examples sentences that you've used is that they're so unnatural that they sound strange anyway. But However would normally be restricted to neutral and formal contexts, whether spoken or written. Here are some examples from spoken English, both in a neutral style :
a) But the theory is that if we, if we get to know what the, the purpose er of the job or, or the assignment is, er then we, we stand a slightly better chance of er getting a satisfied client at the end of the day. However, it's still a vague definition and we often find it more useful to er tidy that definition up by introducing, conformance with requirements.
b) ...because it was probably the first time they had formally quoted a price. Er, however erm because of the concern about er the overall cost of the programme and the production cost in nineteen ninety two

Re: conjunction
 

Hi Susan,
1.Do you mean this one sounds strange with 'however' in it?
It is a fat dog. However, its owner is thin.

2.What does neutral style mean you mentioned in your post?

Thank you very much.

Re: conjunction
 

Yes. a) It's very unlikely that anyone would say this - what would be the context. b) the sentences are too short to sound natural. compare them with the authentic ones that I gave as examples. When sentences are as short as this it's much more likely that they'd be combined into one longer sentence by using a co-ordinating or subordinatiing conjunction. If you want to analyse language always use a concordancer and investigate real examples.

Neutral style is exactly what it sounds like - neither formal nor informal. I'm writing in neutral style at the moment. Most words/expressions are neutral in style - they can be used on their own when the speaker/writer doesn't want to be either formal or informal, or they can be combined with formal or informal features. So :

Informal : Awesome nosh. Thanks.
Neutral : Thanks for the lovely meal.

Neutral : I'm afraid you didn't get the job you applied for.
Formal : I regret to have to inform you that your application for the post of Assistant Manager was unsuccessful.

Re: conjunction
 

Hi Susan,

Could you please help me check if 'on the other hand' would sound natural instead of 'but' in these sentences?
Is there any subtle difference in meaning or in tone between but and on the other hand here?

1.Mike is tall. On the other hand, he is thin.

2.Mary is not a kind girl. On the other hand, she is smart.

3.Is it a black knife?
It is not a black knife. On the other hand, it is rusty.

4.Are oranges usually cheap here?
Yes, they are usually cheap here. On the other hand, they are expensive now.

Thank you very much for your help.

Re: conjunction
 

1+2. No - a) being tall and thin is quite usual so why would you want to use a contrast adverbial? b) because in both cases the sentences are too short. As I said above, if short clauses are used, it's more natural to join them in writing by using a co-ordinating conjunction to make one longer sentence. In spoken language there are no sentences, but the ideas would be juxtaposed in the same way. So a more natural phrasing would be :

1. Mike is tall and thin.
2. A : I don't think Mary is the right person for the job. B : Well, it's true that she isn't very kind - but she's quite smart.

3. There's no contrast here - rusty is not the opposite of black. And if someone asked me if a knife was black, why would I a) repeat the question b) mention it was rusty?? It doesn't make sense without a context. The dialogue would go something like :
A : Is the knife you're looking for black?
B: What? The handle? No, it's brown. It's got a brown handle and a rusty blade.
Here, it's clear why the speaker is giving these details - so that the listener has more chance of identifying the knife if she finds it.

3+ 4 These are clearly spoken contexts - and we don't speak in sentences but simply juxtapose or co-ordinate ideas - as in my example for (3) above. In addition, sentence connectors are used much less frequently except in more complex contexts. As above, when the proposition is very short and simple, juxtaposition or co-ordination is more usual. The dialogue in 4 might go something like :

A : Are oranges usually cheap here?
B : Usually, yes - but they're more expensive at the moment 'cos they're out of season.

To analyse language properly you must put it in a realistic context. This involves considering a multitude of factors such as :
- Who the participants are and their relationship
- Whether the discourse is spoken dialogue (short turns), spoken monologue (long turns) or written. All will have different features.
- Why they are saying/writing what they are saying/writing
and a lot of other factors which are less important in your examples.

It was the lack of the last factor (why) that made it impossible to analyse your sentences without changing them.

But as I said above, you should never invent language in order to analyse it. Take your examples from a concordancer.

Re: conjunction
 

Hi susan,
1.What does juxtapose and co-ordinate mean?

2.Can I use 'and' instead of but in the context?
A : I don't think Mary is the right person for the job. B : Well, it's true that she isn't very kind - but/and she's quite smart.

Thank you very much for your great help!

Re: conjunction
 

1. Juxtapose = place next to each other. Here are three genuine pieces of spoken English (from Crystal and Davy, (1975) Advanced Conversational English, Longman
a. ..it was lovely our one with the nightclub (p.52)
b. Sussex has super heath country lovely lovely sort of rolling heaths (p.80)
c. they'd be off and away little grey smooth sleeky things (p58)
The idea are simply placed next to each other.

Co-ordinate = link ideas together with a conjunction such as and, but, or :
..it took us 40 minutes to catch them and all we had to do was to get them out of the cage and into the bucket with the lid on but they were - they just went like this and they - you'd go you know and they'd shoot out through the bars of the cage and they'd be off and away little grey smooth sleeky things and we used in the end we devised a very good trap.... (p.58)

2. No. As I said above, the relationship between these two ideas is concession - a change in the direction of the discourse. So you need a concession connective like but. And is an addition connective. It indicates that the two idea are the same and therefore the discourse is continuing in the same direction. Compare :

a.I don't like vegetables but I eat them because I know they're good for me. If someone says I don't like vegetables, you expect them to continue so I never eat them . Here however the discourse changes direction and "surprises" you with the fact that s/he eats them all the time.

b. I love vegetables and I eat them every day. Here the discourse continues in the direction you'd expect it to. The two ideas are "the same".

So with the Mary example, consider these ideas :
She isn't very kind = negative trait
She's lazy = negative trait
She's quite smart = positive trait
So :

A : I don't think Mary is the right person for the job. B : Well, it's true that she isn't very kind - but she's quite smart.
B accepts that a negative trait exists but then changes direction to propose a positive trait. So the two ideas are different : negative /positive

A : I don't think Mary is the right person for the job. B : Yes, I agree. She isn't very kind and she's lazy too.
B states two negative traits. The two ideas are the same : positive / positive

Re: conjunction
 

Hi susan,

Mike is tall and thin.

As you said, we should use 'and' here, but I think tall is positive and thin is negative (my opinion). Why can't we use 'but' here?

Thank you very much for your helpful explanation.

Re: conjunction
 

I didn't say it had to be positives and/or negatives- I said it had to be two ideas that were the same in some way. The positive and negatives of the examples were only an example. These two adjectives are the same because : tall = a physical quality; thin = a physical quality. They are two physical qualities.


Unqualified, as in your sentence, there is no way of telling whether they are positive or negative qualities - which is something entirely subjective. As you say, it is "in your opinion". For you, thin may be negative. For me it's very positive. So you would need to qualify it with an adverb to make your opinion clear. Compare :

Mike is tall and thin (neutral - two physical qualities co-ordinated)
Mike is very goodlooking, but he's horribly thin. (positive + negative qualities)
Mike is ridiculously tall and horribly thin (negative + negative qualities)
I wish I looked like Mike. He's really tall and wonderfully thin. (positive + positive qualities)
Mike is tall, but he's much too thin. (neutral + negative qualities)

Re: conjunction
 

Hi susan,

The example of 'on the other hand' is from my dictionary:

I know this job of mine isn't well paid; on the other hand/however/,but I don't have to work long hours.

Is there any subtle difference in meaning or in tone(strong or weak, etc.) between but, on the other hand and however if but and however are also fine here?

Does "on the other hand" always describe an opposite situation like the sentence above?

Thank you very much.

Re: conjunction
 

1. No difference.
2. Yes - as I said above, on the other hand is a contrast adverbial.

Re: conjunction
 

Hi susan,

1.He is a doctor, but he is not kind.

2.He is poor, but he is happy.

3.She is naughty, but she is not happy.

4.Is she very powerful?
No, she's not, but she is really quick.

1.The sentences above are all from my book. Does 'yet' sound natural if I use it instead of 'but' here?

2.Is 'yet' always uesed in formal context when meaning 'in spite of'?

Thank you very much for your comment.

Re: conjunction
 

1. Yes - but it makes it sound as if the speaker is surprised, as yet can only be used for concession. With but it's ambiguous - it's not clear if the speaker intends contrast or concession.

2. Not necessarily. Both could be used in neutral style:

He insisted on going out in spite of the torrential rain.
It was pouring with rain - yet he insisted on going out.

Re: conjunction
 

1. Yes - but it makes it sound as if the speaker is surprised, as yet can only be used for concession. With but it's ambiguous - it's not clear if the speaker intends contrast or concession.

2. Not necessarily. Both could be used in neutral style:

He insisted on going out in spite of the torrential rain.
It was pouring with rain - yet he insisted on going out.

Re: conjunction
 

Hi susan,

1.It was pouring with rain - yet he insisted on going out.
2.It was pouring with rain, but he insisted on going out.
3.It was pouring with rain; still, he insisted on going out.
4.It was pouring with rain; however, he insisted on going out.
5.It was pouring with rain; nevertheless, he insisted on going out.

What's the subtle difference in meaning or degree of surprise between but, yet, still, however and nevertheless here?

Thanks a million.

Re: conjunction
 

a) It would be more usual nowadays to use full stops rather than semi-colons. The use of semi-colons to divide main clauses, though still seen, seems to be dying out and often has an "old-fashioned" feel to it.
b) These are all concession markers in a clear context of concession. As I said above, concession conjunctions and adverbials express a change in the direction of the discourse - something unexpected in the second part given the logical conclusion you might draw from the first part. There is therefore always an element of "surprise" with concession. The degree has nothing to do with the connective but with the content of the text.
If you look again at my last post I said that yet was more "surprising than "but" in your example because with "but" it was unclear whether the speaker intended simple contrast or concession - from the content it could have been either. With "yet" there is no ambiguity as "yet" can only express concession, not contrast. By choosing a clear concession marker, the speaker is telling you that you should be surprised.
In my example, on the other hand, as the content is clearly concessive and there is no ambiguity, the listener automatically understands "but" as indicating concession, so that there is no difference in meaning between any of the sentences.

Re: conjunction
 

Hi susan,

According to your post, "When sentences are as short as this it's much more likely that they'd be combined into one longer sentence by using a co-ordinating or subordinatiing conjunction."

'Still' is an adverb, so it wouldn't be a good choice in the following short informal sentences instead of 'but' to express concession?

1.He is a doctor, but he is not kind.

2.He is poor, but he is happy.

3.She is naughty, but she is not happy.

4.Is she very powerful?
No, she's not, but she is really quick.

Thank you very much for your reply.

Re: conjunction
 

a) As still is an adverb it can't join clauses into a single sentence - only conjunctions can do that.
b) As before, your sentences are invented, uncontextualised and rather unnatural, so it's almost impossible to say what would be used. Most of them seem to be contrast rather than concession to me.
c) As I said before, still is more common in spoken English, where ideas are usually either co-ordinated or just juxtaposed. Here are some authentic examples of its use. + means there's a pause:

I'm sure there's some awful battle where we got er knocked about + but still I hope that's not a presage of what's gonna happen now

I'm getting old + yeah that's older + still yeah it's funny + you don't feel any older inside

Re: conjunction
 

Hi susan,

Many thanks for helping me with those questions.

This sentence is from my book:
"Although she is beautiful, she is not kind."

The question is I'm not sure if it is correct with 'although here.
There is no element of contradiction and surprise to the main clause. This is my opinion.

What would you think? Is it fine or not?

Thanks a lot.

Re: conjunction
 

As before - it is impossible to make this sort of judgement about a sentence unless you quote the full context. Isolated like that, I would agree - it's not a logical continuation. But put it into a context and it easily makes sense :

Context : A fantasy novel such as Game of Thrones. The King is looking for a wife and his courtiers are trying to convince him that their daughters would be ideal.
Courtier : Your Grace knows the Lady Alayne is beautiful, and her kindness is renowned...
King : Lord Owen - I fear you jest. Although the Lady is beautiful, she is not kind. Do not delude yourself that I have not heard tales of her behaviour towards the peasants of Derne etc etc etc

I suspect though that you're confusing concession and contrast again. This seems to me to be more a case of contrast : statement of positive quality vs statement of negative quality (in the opinion of the speaker, obviously).

Re: conjunction
 

Hi susan,
Thank you for giving that example to show how although works in that situation.
The context is from my book:

T:Who is she?
A:She is my sister.
T:Is she a kind girl?
A:No, she is not. Although she is beautiful, she is not kind.

1.Does 'although' make sense here?
2.Is although used in informal and formal sentences?

Re: conjunction
 

1. The whole dialogue is so unnatural and stilted that it really doesn't make sense to ask whether it "makes sense". The use of full forms rather than contractions, the use of "she", asking if she's "kind" for no reason at all, the use of "kind" rather than "nice" - and various other things all make it totally unlikely as a conversation. The dialogue would go something like :

A : Who's that over there?
B : Who? The girl with Joe? That's my sister.
A : She looks rather nice.
B : Don't be fooled by appearances. She may be good-looking, but she's certainly not nice!
A : Oh - why?
etc etc

I can't get although into this conversation in any way that sounds natural. It's spoken, and subordinate clauses are much rarer in spoken English than co-ordinated clauses. That's the real problem - not the meaning of although but that it necessitates a complex sentence in a context where simple and compound sentences are the norm.

2. Although is neutral in style and can therefore be used in any context.

Re: conjunction
 

Hi susan,

1.Why is the relationship between these two ideas of your example concession not contrast?
Is this the reason as you said: B accepts that a negative trait exists but then changes direction to propose a positive trait?

A: I don't think Mary is the right person for the job.
B : Well, it's true that she isn't very kind - but she's quite smart.

2.Can although be also used for contrast?
This example is from online dictionary:
Although he is poor, he is honest.
Does 'although mean 'on the other hand here?

3.Does "although" express concession or contrast in the context?

4.I'm confused about what you said: Although is neutral in style and can therefore be used in any context.
Does it include spoken contexts?

5.Does rather mean a little in you example: She looks rather nice.

Thank you very much.

Re: conjunction
 

1/2/3. There's a grey area in the middle of concession and contrast - which is why a lot of accounts lump them together. These are typical examples.

4. Yes. Whether the discourse is spoken or written, the style may change. Spoken language may be formal (eg some speeches), neutral (eg a conversation with a doctor), or informal (eg chat between two friends). Written language may be formal (eg a legal document), neutral (eg these messages), or informal (a quick e-mail message to a close friend.) So while it's true that features such as subordinate clauses are less common in spontaneous spoken English than in written language, it's a matter of frequency, not an absolute.

5. No - it's somewhere on the scale between quite and extremely.

Re: conjunction
 

Hi susan,

1.According to your comment: "asking if she's "kind" for no reason at all, the use of "kind" rather than "nice"

Could you please explain why 'nice' is the right choice rather than 'kind' in the conversation?

2.Do you mean they can express either contrast or concession in the examples here?

Thank you very much for your reply.

Re: conjunction
 

1. Nice is a general evaluation meaning "pleasant to be with"; kind has the specific meaning of "not hurtful to others" and tends to describe behaviour rather than the person themself. It would mainly be used to describe specific instances of behaviour :
A) She said I looked fat and ugly.
B) That wasn't very kind.

2. As I said, your example was so unnatural that it's impossible to say what it is. Forget it - choose authentic examples to analyse.

Re: conjunction
 

Hi susan,

So, It doesn't sound natural to ask if someone is kind or not for no reason. Could you give an example of 'Is John/Mary kind?' which might fit in a context?

Thanks a lot.

Re: conjunction
 

No, can't think of one. Sorry. It sounds too unnatural.

Re: conjunction
 

Hi susan,

Is 'while' formal or informal when it means 'on the other hand'?

Would while sound natural in your example instead of but?
A : Are oranges usually cheap here?
B : Usually, yes - but/while they're more expensive at the moment 'cos they're out of season.

Thank you very much.

Re: conjunction
 

You've used while incorrectly. It's a subordinating conjunction like although and not a co-ordinating conjunction like but. So there must be a main clause attached :

We rarely eat oranges in the summer months. While/Although they cost hardly anything from November to April because they're locally grown, the price rises steeply between May and October, when they have to be imported.

While/Although history is really my favourite subject, I know that as a degree it wouldn't be much use for getting a job.

In style, it's neutral. But as I said before, co-ordination is much more common in spoken English than subordination, so it is rarer in spoken English. But because of the subordination, not because of the word itself. When it does occur, it therefore tends to occur in situations where the speaker is taking a long turn (speeches, radio interviews etc) rather than in social conversation. Here's an example :

While I sympathize with the caller from West Calder, I feel we pay poll tax as well to cover all these things...

Re: conjunction
 

Hi susan,
1.Can I change your examples into the ones like these:

We rarely eat oranges in the summer months. While/Although the price rises steeply between May and October, when they have to be imported, they cost hardly anything from November to April because they're locally grown.

History is really my favourite subject, while/although I know that as a degree it wouldn't be much use for getting a job.


2.Do while and although mean on the other hand in your examples here?

Thank you very much for your help.

Re: conjunction
 

1. a) Yes. b) Yes, though while is less likely here as this seems to be spoken English, and if subordination is used at all in spoken English although is more likely to occur in initial position than while.

2. Yes

I think this thread has more or less run its course, don't you? There's nothing much more to say and it's getting repetitive. I think you'll find answers to any further questions you have if you read through the past posts. Or maybe someone else has something to add?

Re: conjunction
 

Hi susan,
I really appreciate your great help. You've been so helpful!