[J_Joseph]

Your arguments are flawed. By your logic, everything can be considered a belief. I believe I am correct based on history, critical thinking skills, history, and lack of fear of the unknown.

Did I mention history?

Also, read the original post where he states..

But is it not worth telling the kids whose birthday it is?

when referring to Christmas. I made a rebuttal against that. The OP did not say "Is it not worth telling the kids whose birthday is being celebrated on a day that isn't his actual birthday just so it coincides with a pagan holiday to help Christians convert them easier"....to which I would have had to agree with the thought for accuracy but still disagree on it being a good idea to discuss in an ESL class. I also took umbrage with your statements that..

They don't want it to go back to a Christian holiday

and

"It's better to know about something, accept that others believe the same or something different, and understand the thing. That's much better than lies or avoidance in my opinion."

How can it go back to something it never really was? Its not a Christian holiday, its a pagan holiday the Christians bastardized. You seem to grasp that only partially. Also, yes it currently is acknowledged by some that Christmas is not the actual birthday of Christ but that is a fairly new phenomenon. For many, many years it has been portrayed as the actual birthday of Christ, which is a flat out lie the majority still believes to be factual.

Also, if an ESL teacher is taking in upon themselves to 'enlighten' students on the beliefs of others as it pertains to Christmas or whatnot, unless they are also doing so for every other belief structure out there then they are indeed pushing an agenda. They are doing so in a mild way but doing it just the same. Is this the role of an ESL teacher? I am afraid I missed that chapter while I was studying for certification. I also missed the then/than day though so /shrug

Your statements about the current image of Santa in red and white being Coca-Colas doing are only partially correct as well. Images of Santa similar to those we are accustomed to currently have appeared prior to the Coca-Cola renderings. The drawings however did go a loooooong way to cementing that image as the one we accept for Santa today. Coca-Cola popularized the image on a mass scale but in no way created it. You do not have to take my word for it, go do your own research. Educate yourself.


As to your quasi scientific question, I am not afraid or ashamed to say that I simply do not know the answer. I will not however make up things to cover the fact that I do not know. I will not create an entity or series of entities and give him/her/it/them power over or credit for the things I do not know or understand or can not readily explain.

If you wish to question my tolerance, that is fine. I may very well not be as tolerant about some things as I think I am. The issue is that I have a have a high tolerance for what people choose to believe (or think I do) but an extremely low tolerance for willful ignorance. Those traits do clash quite often.

I thought I made most of that fairly clear in my earlier posts though. Possibly in my attempts to not be abrasive I have diluted the points I intended to get across. I will remedy that.

1. The OP who has such a 'deep Catholic faith' unfortunately has a shallow understanding of history in general and the history of his own faith in particular.

2. We are guests. We should act like guests and not mention topics which the host country or school does not want discussed regardless of our own beliefs. If this is too much of an issue for some, maybe they should consider teaching elsewhere or possibly not taking advantage of a situation where they have a captive audience and are speaking from a position of authority.

3. I do not care what people believe if it makes them better people. I will still mock people for being superstitious or flat out ignorant but I will do so regardless of what form of superstition their belief structure promotes and not necessarily hold it against the individual. Some people just simply do not know better. It does disappoint me to see otherwise intelligent people harboring ideas that are flat out silly but such is the power of belief.

4. While showing a somewhat better understanding of history by acknowledging the pagan origins of Christmas you fail when discussing Coca-Cola and the current common image of Santa. You also seem willing to ignore what you know about history when it conflicts with your beliefs. You are far from alone on that score so do not feel bad about it.

5. If somebody does not understand something, possibly they should not be discussing it in class.

6. Check your beliefs and superstitions at the door when you are teaching.

[mesmark]

Quote J_Joseph

1. The OP who has such a 'deep Catholic faith' unfortunately has a shallow understanding of history in general and the history of his own faith in particular.

Well, Joseph it's your condescending words like "shallow" and "silly" that taint your argument with hatred and bias. On what grounds do you even base the comment that his understanding of history is not more complete than your own? Because he has faith in something you can't understand?

Quote J_Joseph

2. We are guests. We should act like guests and not mention topics which the host country or school does not want discussed regardless of our own beliefs.

I'm not a guest. I have a house here and I pay taxes. I'm a permanent resident. Don't assume we are all on holiday.

<offensive remarks removed> my apologies

Quote J_Joseph

4. While showing a somewhat better understanding of history by acknowledging the pagan origins of Christmas you fail when discussing Coca-Cola and the current common image of Santa. You also seem willing to ignore what you know about history when it conflicts with your beliefs. You are far from alone on that score so do not feel bad about it.

I don't. It's called faith, But there are plenty of supporting facts that you "also seem willing to ignore when it conflicts with your beliefs" ...

Quote J_Joseph

5. If somebody does not understand something, possibly they should not be discussing it in class.

Fair enough, but let's not call a different opinion a lack of understanding.

You believe you are correct based upon what other people who believed something have spoon fed you.

Please go back and read how many times you've called people stupid in this thread. If you are trying to enlighten someone, insulting them by calling them 'ignorant', 'childish', 'superstitious' ... doesn't add strength to your argument. Let your argument stand and see how well it stacks up. A good argument doesn't need to rely on attacking the opponent.

If you'd like to explain that Christians attached their celebration of Jesus's birth to the timing of a pagan ritual that was in place in an attempt to draw them away from that, that's fine. That would be correct and a good explanation of where Christmas began.

But to say that Christmas was originally a pagan ritual isn't correct, is it? It began as a celebration at the same time to push the other out. Some of the things, like the Christmas tree have been added that were originally pagan. Buddhist festivals here in Japan did the same thing, taking previous local worship services and creating Buddhist events out of them. Corporate America, the arguably ruling authority, is now trying to take what is a Christian holiday, adopt some of it's customs and change it (force the other out) to serve their own agenda. It's not unique to any culture or belief system.

We might have to just agree to disagree.